Welcome to episode #118 of Explode Your Expert Biz Show, brought to you by http://gtex.org.uk/,
I am your host, Simone Vincenzi, The Experts Strategist, and this is the podcast for experts who want to become the ultimate authority in their niche while making an impact in the world.
Today I have the pleasure to Interview our GTeX Lifetime Member Caroline King
Caroline can take you from being just a Talking Head to a Speaker Extraordinaire so that your message has complete clarity and therefore more people will buy from you.
Caroline can teach you to speak so that you could make the telephone directory sound interesting and then when you marry it with your expertise in your niche, you will light the touch paper that ignites your business.
In this episode we talk about
- Why you should chuck out the traditional public speaking teachings and learn what really works instead.
- Why the audience is the most important ingredient when speaking.
- How to deliver so that the human brain is enthralled by what you say instead of zoned out.
Connect with Caroline King
If you want to make 6 figures presentations and become awesome at Selling From The Stage without compromising your integrity I have created The Ultimate Selling From Stage Checklist.
The most comprehensive checklist to create a pitch that sell without being a douchebag.
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– Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Explode, your expert appears on the show today. I’m here with the one and only, one of our GTeX lifetime members, Caroline King! How are you doing, Caroline, today?
– I’m doing fine, thank you very much, and thank you very much for inviting me on.
– Well how could I not invite you? I mean, you are a person who takes speakers from a talking head to speaker extraordinaire. And that’s why I wanted to have this interview with you, Caroline, because I’ve seen the work that you have done with some of our lifetime members and the recent action event that we did last night. It was, wow, incredible, but before we get started and share how speakers can not become, you know, just holding a microphone and delivering a presentation but truly captivate the audience, tell us something more about you.
– Okay so although I’m working with speakers now I don’t come from a public speaking background. I come from a performing arts background so the first time I was on a really big theatre stage, you know, a proper theatre with proper rate seatings and all those curtains and everything else I was five. So that’s when it started and basically, like a lot of small children, I probably said something along the lines Mom, can I try dancing? Which is what I did. And one of the great things was that I did dancing and I did acting and I did singing, I played the flute, played the piano, and I always loved my lessons, I loved practising and the icing on the cake was the performing. And I suppose what really got me was that later on when I went and trained to become a professional is that you’ve got to really love the process of this. You’ve got to really love actually doing all that practise and trying to make something really, really good. It’s not just about the performance. By doing all of that other stuff it makes the performance something extra special, something that you can’t sort of do anywhere else. And it gives you such a special feeling, especially with that kind of, amount of effort and work and passion that you’re putting in to it because when you’re a professional, when you’re performing, it perhaps only takes up about 10% of what you ever do. So you’ve got to really love the rest of it. And that’s one of the things I want to bring in to the speaking world now because what I’ve noticed, because unfortunately I’m not a young, spring chicken anymore, well in to my 50s now but what I’ve noticed over the last 35 years is that, certainly in performing arts, if you don’t love learning and refining then if you’re only there for the total, that supposed glory of that performance, then actually the performance doesn’t work.
– No, it feels like the same in the expert industry. I mean, you find people that are starting as a speaker or as coach or as a trainer because of the fame, because of the glory, because of the fact that they want to stand on a stage in front of a thousand people and share their message. However, you’ve got to love the process because if you hate it it’s a long journey before you can get there. So I think it’s the same, I see a parallel here between the performing arts and as well the expert industry.
– Absolutely, absolutely, most definitely because if you don’t love what you’re doing 90% of the time then how can you make that performance extra special? At the end of the day the performance actually isn’t about you. It’s about the audience. You know, at the end of the day it’s the audience that’s come to see you for some reason and if you can’t make it special for them, if you can’t give them the experience they’re looking for, if you can’t entertain them, if you can’t give them the information that they’re looking for, then what’s the point? What’s the point of you being on that stage?
– Absolutely, I agree with you Caroline. So now, Caroline, before we start sharing some tips, strategies, techniques, I have a question for you which I never asked you because for those of you guys that start listening on iTunes or any other broadcasting platform, maybe you’re watching it on YouTube or Facebook, then you have to know that Caroline is not only an incredible speaker trainer, is not only one of our lifetime members, but is also our incredible event monitor. Now, all of our events will not happen if Caroline will not be by our side. Or they will happen but it will happen in Simone’s style and you don’t want to see that So I have a question I’ve never, in the years we’ve been working together, I’ve never asked you this question, which is, what was the proudest moment that you had as a performer? You know, it can be small or big but as a performance, your performing career, what was the moment where you said, wow?
– Oh gosh, you know, what suddenly has come to mind is a lunchtime recital I did in a beautiful Baptist church in Wopford. And I’d been there before and they have a lovely lunchtime recital series, they always get a lot of people in the audience and I was definitely on fire that day, oh absolutely on fire. And there’s, I’m just trying to think of the name of the song, I can’t remember it. But it’s by an English composer called Delius. And the song is like a fairy tale, so it’s like a Cinderella or a Snow White type thing plus a little bit more like a Rapunzel because it has more of that kind of quality to it. And like anything else it’s a metaphor and therefore as you sing this song, because I was trained as a classical music singer so that’s what I was doing, it’s about getting the message of it. Because it’s a metaphor, there is a kind of parcel element to it as well and it’s kind of, when you’re a performer you are putting it out there and then it’s up to the audience to decide what they do with it inside of themselves. And I was doing this song and it has some really poignant moments, the way the composers put together the chords at just the right moment where certain types of feelings that you’re hopefully gonna feel as the performer is happening and that you’re communicating that to the audience. And there were three people in the audience and tears slowly starting to come down their cheeks. And something in the way that I performed that particular song and that particular metaphor for them really, really touched them.
– Thank you for sharing, Caroline. I’m still always thinking about the parallel as a speaker ’cause we are performers and the way we share our message gives meaning to our message. And that’s, I think, is a beautiful transition now to see how can we share this message in a great way, an empowering way, a way that actually gets the audience to listen but also to feel the emotions that you want to convey as a speaker.
– Yes, absolutely and I think what I’ve learned over all those decades as a performer but also as a teacher, as I was teaching actors and singers, is that there is a process within us and the closer we keep that process to the human experience in terms of how we humans actually work and then communicate it in such a way that the people who are listening to you, they’re gonna hear it in a very human way but they hear it also with the limitations of our mind and our bodies. And so therefore you need to understand what that process is because if you don’t then instead of having an audience that’s enthralled by your body, that is, totally captivated and really inside their brain they’re saying to themselves, I want more of this, I want to hear more, this is such great points. See once they start thinking in terms of the content you’re saying and no longer thinking about, oh my goodness, listen to this, it’s boring, or, why do they have to always stay so deep in their voice or why are they always speaking so quickly? You see, you want all of those types of things out of the way of the audience’s minds so that everything you’ve learned as a technician, as a speaker technician, you’re using all those skills to facilitate the content. As soon as you do that the audience starts going, oh wow, is that a great point, I must write that down. And that’s where we need to get to. And that’s what I’m now passionate about doing within this industry because I have to tell you, when I first went to an event six years ago it was a three day event, lots of speakers, some big names that you will have heard of from the international circuit and I sat there and went, oh, really? Okay, oh, yes… Why? Just, what comes next? I was just gobsmacked, I was totally gobsmacked and that’s such a shame because I know all these techniques that I’ve learned from the performing arts side would really, really help speakers and really power the audience through to the message that you’re there to say and that’s the important bit.
– So now the question is, where is the speaker trained, the current speaker training failing speakers? Because the speaker trainings in our industry, they are crucial because that’s how we become great speakers. And also they’re very expensive. I spent a hell of a lot of money on a speaker training, probably just on speaker training more than 40,000 pounds. So where is the speaker training industry failing the speakers in terms of training now?
– I think there are two things that I’ve observed over the last couple of years. One is, how far away speaker training has gone from acting training. But 40 years ago the two were very, very similar. We were often teaching exactly the same techniques. Archetypes, for example. I’ve got two former students who are just about to graduate from two of our top drama schools in this country and last year to test this out I went to see them and some of their friends and I said, tell me, tell me what your training is around archetypes? And they went, arche- what? They hadn’t even heard of the word, they had no idea what it is but it is still very much the mainstay of public speaking training. Not just in this country but around the world. And so I realised there’s a big gulf that’s opened up and I’d like to see that gulf now being bridged and that we can then move in to the 21st century. So there’s that. The second thing is, I think we’re victim in this century extremely to the quick fix. Now, there are plenty of speaker training where you go and do your five days, you might even do seven days in Barley or something like that and there’s plenty of those and they’re very expensive. Yes, they can throw all kinds of information at you but what they can’t do even if they promise it is turn you in to an amazing speaker. It’s a bit like Andy Murray going to a five day bootcamp and learning everything there is to know about tennis. Of course you can learn everything to do about tennis but then thinking, okay, I’ve learned everything there is to know about tennis, I’m gonna go and win Wimbledon now, or something like that. You’ve actually gotta go out there and say, okay, so I remember what he said about forehand, let me have a go, oh my God that was, oh, that just didn’t work, did it? Okay, so what do I need to do? Oh I need to do some training, I need to do some coaching. Okay so the coach comes along and says, you need to kind of have it at that angle, and this all comes in this way, and it needs to be at this angle instead and now you’ve got to practise all of those things and that’s just forehand. And it’s the same with speaking. And people want a quick fix and in fact the event that we did last night, someone came to me and said, oh, I’ve just graduated from being a life coach and got my certificate and everything else, they taught us how to engage people from the stage and this, that, and the other. And my heart sank. Because, folks, actually, you know, part of the thing about this podcast is about how you stand out and I think one of the biggest things you do is go and get really good training. Practise that training, apply it, and then when you stand on that stage you are a different type of speaker. Because the skills are not there to show off the skills, the skills are there to show off you, your message, your knowledge, and what you can give to the world. That’s how you stand out.
– So what does some of these skills, what exercises can we do to become incredible speakers? What kind of things do we need to be aware of to become incredible speakers and starting this journey? ‘Cause yes, everything we do is not about the quick fix. I remember when I started speaking, to the way I’m communicating now, oh, I mean, you’ve seen me not from the very beginning, but you have seen me few years ago and the difference was huge. Why, because there was training in between, as you suggested, and also I did more than 400 events by the time. So the practise makes you perfect. So what are some of the things we can practise, Caroline?
– Okay so one of the things I mentioned earlier on was about how the audience in terms of their brain needs to, you need to deliver to that brain so that it doesn’t zone out. You see, we can’t help and stop our brains from zoning out. It’s part of being a human being, we can’t stop it from happening. So we have to understand the process in terms of what our brain does, how it wants to receive auditory information, it’s as simple as that. However it just takes a little bit of work and understanding. So there’s a kind of foundation level to this so let’s have a look at that first. In that, let me tell you a little story. So, last year I went to a business show in Somerset, it was the first one they’d done for Somerset so I went along and I did –
– And for our international listeners, can you locate the Somerset?
– Okay, Somerset is in the southwest corner of the United Kingdom and it’s about 30 miles south of Bristol. So I went to one and we did one of these speed networking things, you know, where you have about 20 seconds to go blah, blah, blah, and they go at you and then you all stand up and move, so it’s all terribly exciting around it and I actually met another person named Caroline and it turns out she does quite a lot of speaking. And we kind of got on and we decided, ’cause we got aims and objectives for our being there, that we’d meet up at the end, so we did. And we sat down, had coffee, and talked. Now she has a particular medical condition and she goes around to a lot of various different groups, support groups, and talks to them about it, shares her experiences. Some of the decisions she’s made and things like that. And I know that she’s being really helpful to them and she was telling me how she keeps her audiences engaged. So she says, oh I might get them to sort of do a little exercise, they’re gonna talk to their neighbour. I said that’s brilliant, because you’re using interaction and all that is always welcome. I said, but you do realise perhaps for the shorter talks where you’ve got to get information across you can do the same thing but with your voice. She went, really? And I went, yeah, really. Let me explain how it works. So I said, if you’ve got a slide in your talk that’s got about four or five different points on it, she went, yep, I have, okay. So when you deliver the first point you say it in a particular way. That’s fine, not a problem, the audience is with you. Second point, you deliver it, odds are you’re probably gonna deliver it in a similar way. The audience is fine, they’re still with you, brilliant. The third time, same thing, that’s your third point. I said but the fourth point, even if it’s the most important point in the slide, if you deliver it in the same way the audience zones out. Because too much repetition the brain goes, had enough, and it goes, doesn’t matter what the content is. It just goes. And she went, no, I don’t believe that. So I dared her, ’cause she had a talk the next day in Gloucestershire and I said I dared her, you get that slide and you deliver the first four points in the same way and then on the fourth one you watch the audience closely. Look in their eyes and watch the shutters come down. And she went, hmm, maybe. Anyway, I got a phone call the next day. She went, oh my goodness Caroline, I did it, I tried it. Oh my goodness, you were right. As soon as I did that fourth one I can actually see all of those kind of shutters coming down in people’s eyes. I couldn’t believe it. So this is where we could start from. So I call it, and we can delve in to, the power of three.
– Yes please.
– So if you take that example, one, two, three points in the same way, you’ve still got your audience, the fourth one they’re gone. So on the fourth one you’ve got to do something different. Please try and do something different that matches the words you’re saying and the meaning. Okay, don’t just do something different but do something that matchesidentifies that you’re doing something new and that all stays with you. So fourth point is there. Your fifth point you could go back to the way you delivered one, two, and three. And you will keep them then, this is how it is. The thing you’ve got to remember is if you’re trying to deliver number one in one way, number two in a different way, number three in a different way again and number four in a different way, your brain goes too much, please stop. And then it zones out. So actually a balance between the two things. You need to somewhat position –
– That’s what I thought when you were saying four points, I said okay, so now I need to deliver four points in four different ways. What you’re saying is you need to have some consistency, repetition, and some variety at the same time. Otherwise in both situations, in one situation you will confuse the audience, they will zone out because they’re confused, on the other situation they will zone out because they’re bored.
– Exactly, and it’s one of the things that speakers actually have to do for themselves because if you’re a singer the way the music is actually written and composed takes this in to account. So to a certain extent as a singer the work’s done for me. But as a speaker it’s not, it’s just words on a page. Think about all of those songs that you know, you think about the bits that come in, the bits that are repetition, the chorus comes back and you like that because you can now sing along with it. And then you’ve got the next bit, perhaps it’s the bridge, an instrumental bridge, and yeah you like that ’cause now that’s something a bit new and it gets your attention. And that’s what I want to bring in from performing arts, all of those kinds of things. And they make such a huge difference if you’re standing on stage delivering a message.
– So now we talked about the variety and consistency in your message, now what I would love to talk about, ’cause that’s something that you are incredible at, is mastering your voice. Because you do all these changes of pace, of tempo, to create this variety and consistency at the same time, you have the most important tools that you have as a speaker, which is your voice. So can you give us a couple of exercises that you found to be incredibly beneficial for speakers to train their voice so they can be more interesting on stage?
– Okay so this comes in to the section which covers all sorts of things from perhaps pitch in your voice, tone, the texture, and all these kinds of bits. I call it the bandwidth in your voice. And all of those things I’ve just mentioned have their own bandwidth. And if you put them all together then quite often the bandwidth is very thin and that’s when people sound a little monotonous. What the great thing about doing it is, yeah, then they nod off, what’s the great thing about exploring your voice is you begin to know where the highest pitches are and the lowest pitches are. And as soon as you can do that you can then match it to the words. So sometimes if you’re saying a story and you’re moving along with the story, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and then you say, and of course he was sitting there and he looked and he went, really? Now, can you hear how high I went? Now when I hear someone on stage do that, very rarely do they get to those types of pitches, and the thing is that in normal life we would do something like that, we would say it like that.
– [Simone] Really?
– Exactly, and that’s what the brain recognises and it goes back to this, you know, I said about, you know, we’ve gone through all those points and everything else about the brain. But the brain is picking up on that and what it’s doing is, your voice is now mirroring the sentiment, the meaning of the words of the story. And as soon as you’re not doing that, you then get alignment. So in terms of an exercise, pitch. Find out where the pitch in your voice, and it’s a bit like a slide. I’m sure you went down a slide when you were a little boy, yes? So exactly, so what you do is, so this is exercises like this are not for show and are not for performing, okay? What it does is it gets you to explore. So it’s a bit like, you start at the top of your voice, you do it on a me sound and you gome. And now you’re at the bottom of the slide.
– Let me give it a go. Me.
– Okay, not bad but I reckon you can probably go higher. So if you can go, this is what you need to do. When you breathe in a moment to do the me, I want you to pull your tummy in. I want you to, I know this sounds weird, sink down, and the sound is gonna come swinging out the top of your head. So you’reme.
– It’s a little bit higher but it’s one of those things, the more you practise, we’re back to Andy Murray now, the more you practise at it the higher it will get and then you get all the way down. Now the trick about going all the way down is that sometimes when we’re trying to go down we then push the voice, you must never push the voice. When you push the voice you get problems, you get nasty little nodes on your vocal cords and polyps and then surgeons like to come away and hack them off and sometimes you recover from them and sometimes you don’t.
– [Simone] Oh, and you don’t want to do that.
– You don’t want to do that, so when you get really low you need to sound, you need to allow the sound to come out, don’t push the sound. Can you hear the difference?
– [Simone] Yeah, I guess.
– Push and then you allow. And you muck around with it. Get a book out and read it and do all kinds of different pitching and this, that, and the other. And then start thinking in terms of your talk, how you can match the pitch of your voice to the meaning and the sentiment of what you’re saying. And this is where we start. So the pitch is one thing, pace, tempo in music we call it, how fast you’re going. So we are now back to this, what the brain likes. You do it all in one go, all at one pace all the time and you keep going and you keep going and keep going and keep going, the brain goes okay, okay, can we do something, it’s like your driving along and you’re ignoring every single traffic light, every single giveaway sign and everything else. Okay, so we need some variety in it.
– It’s a recipe for a crash.
– Exactly, and the thing about it is again if you look at your talk, which are the bits that need to go a little bit faster? Which are the bits where you need to go a little bit faster to get that climax? Okay, and then you need to pull back. And that is much more interesting. You’re also, as I say, you’re aligning with how you’re doing things with that message. Therefore it enhances the message, therefore the audience gets it better, they’re more likely to take something away from it. So you can do things like that. So that’s that, then there’s, in music we call them dynamics. Louds and softs. A crescendo, you start really quiet and then you get louder and louder and louder and louder and then, do you know what, the most important, do you see what I did? I got faster, I paused, and then you’re going, oh, what’s she going to say next?
– I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know
– Exactly, and that’s how your audience are gonna be thinking. And you’re creating this, you’re creating their experience, you’re creating being able to offer what you’ve got to give them in terms of your expertise and your knowledge and your information in the best way possible for the brain. I know that there is this thing in the public speaking industry where they go, no, no, I’m going to be authentic and I’m not a performer. Well I’m sorry, A, you do have to be authentic. That’s the first thing, it’s a requirement, it’s not a skill. I’ve actually heard people say, don’t forget to practise your authenticity. What? You’re either authentic or not, it’s a state of being, it’s not a skill.
– You’re either lying or you’re telling the truth, that’s it.
– But if you don’t take some of these other skills on then you’re just another person standing up there, a talking head.
– I see. This was of incredible value, Caroline. I personally loved all the exercises and I can see when you speak at our events or when you do our speaker training with the other GTeX members, how they hang on to every single word that you say and it’s something that is acquired through mastery. So this is really a call to action to every single speaker which is listening right now. If you do presentations, make sure that you take this seriously because if you don’t take this seriously, if you don’t take your voice seriously, you don’t take your performance seriously, then all your message will be wasted, or if not all, a big part of it. So don’t make this mistake. Now before we depart, Caroline, I would love to ask you how do being a GTeX member helped you and your business?
– The reason I joined was because of a friend, the lovely CJ.
– Yeah, we love CJ.
– I know, CJ is wonderful. CJ is our techie guy in GTeX and he’s just brilliant and he does all my tech now ’cause –
– Yeah, you guys will hear the interview with CJ in a few weeks or so, stay tuned for that one.
– Absolutely, you need someone like that in your life, most definitely. And he lives in London and obviously I don’t and he was telling me all about the events that he was going to and then he joined, and I was thinking, I could really do with something like this down here in Somerset but there was nothing. And I looked and I looked and at the time you’re only kind of doing evening events so I can’t really justify coming all the way out to London just for an evening. And then suddenly you started doing two day weekend events. And that’s when I got in touch, you phoned me, and you started talking about implementation and that’s what I needed. I needed help with that because if I’m sitting here on the computer and I’m doing stuff I may have done one tiny little thing not completely right but I’m stuck, I can’t get beyond it. And so if I come to a weekend course and I’m learning about whatever it is, and then we’re doing it, because we’re doing it if we get that stuck there’s someone there to help. Not only that, the mindset of having started something, if you don’t manage to finish it at the weekend and you go home and you do finish it it’s not like, oh, look at these beautiful notes that I’ve got. And now let’s start to put them in to practise and you start and you look at it and it just suddenly becomes all too much. And you go, oh my goodness, where did you say we need to start? And, I’m not sure about this, and then of course you’re notes stay as notes, don’t they? And that’s the difference and I didn’t want that to happen anymore.
– Thank you, thank you Caroline for sharing. So now to wrap up, this is actually the first interview where we interview one of our GTeX members and you will hear it now that we are adding another episode every single week. We’ll interview some of our top members within the GTeX community, particularly our lifetime members. And this is an opportunity for you to get to know them and also to learn from them because the level of experience and expertise like you heard from Caroline today is top notch. So to wrap up, Caroline, if someone wants to get in touch with you, someone wants to learn how to connect with you or if you have a free training that you can give them, where they can go?
– Okay, so you can find me on Facebook, that’s quite easy, and you can find me on LinkdIn. So you can connect with me that way to start off with.
– She is Caroline King, Facebook and LinkdIn, Caroline King.
– Caroline King, yes. Now I do have something a little bit special which I developed last week. And as you know I have a structure that I use when I do my talks because I’ve gone through that with some of the GTeX members, they use it. Now I’ve revamped it and it’s even better than it was. CJ’s done wizzy things with it so it even looks fantastic. I’ve also added a few things in to it that’s going to help you also deliver what it is you’re putting together. And I’ve done the structure because I know how many speakers get hung up about, oh my goodness, where should I put this, what order should it be in? How do I start, what should I be putting in? And so on and so forth. By the time they’ve tried to work all of that out it gets to be their talk and they haven’t even thought about how they’re going to deliver it. Which is a shame because we now know from today if you deliver it really, really well you actually give exponentially more value than any other speaker. Which is why you get to stand out. So you can get this as a download and I’m gonna tell you what to do with that in just a moment. Then there’s something a little bit extra. So the instructions of how to use the grid is there but if you now plan a nine minute Facebook live and you go and do that Facebook live and you tag me in to it I will then watch it, I will make some notes, and then I’ll be in touch with you to organise a 30 minute consultation call. We are going to do some feedback on your delivery. So that is my offer to everyone and it’s all free. So you get the download for free, you do your Facebook live, I listen, and then I’m going to help you with it in a free consultation. So that is the offer. So where can you get the download? Well you need to email me. So you need to email me at Caroline@SovereignSpeakers.com.
– So please, Caroline@SovereignSpeakers.com. You will find the link for email address here in the show notes so make sure that you scroll down where there are all the social media links of Caroline. There is going to be also her email and I’ve seen people that came to Caroline’s course and I’ve seen our members go in to her courses. These are official speaker trainers within GTeX and it is for a reason, because she gets results. And that’s the only thing that matters for us at GTeX, can we give results? Yes, brilliant, so welcome to the team. And Caroline is the best person that I’ve ever met to get you to become an incredible speaker. So make sure that you do your Facebook live, download the nine grid assistant, and connect with Caroline for your consultation. Caroline, thank you very much for being here on our show today, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you here.
– Thank you very much for having me and thank you very much for having me as a member of GTeX, and not only that ’cause I now work with you as well, thank you very much for that, too. Your support, both you and Ben, has been absolutely amazing, your knowledge is great and it’s really helping me and my business really move forward so thank you very much.
– You’re welcome, it’s my absolute pleasure. And for everyone who is listening right now or maybe you’re watching the video, thank you very much for watching and listening. Make sure that you hit that subscribe button right now if you’re watching on YouTube, subscribe on our YouTube channel. If you’re listening on iTunes subscribe on iTunes. Maybe you’re listening on Spotify, follow us on Spotify. Wherever you are listening to this incredible interview from make sure you follow us so you don’t miss any other episodes. I know that button is calling you, it’s calling you right now, yes, that one click, yes, awesome, well done. And then if you like the work that we do there is only one more thing that you can do for me. It would mean the world if you would leave us a review. You can go on iTunes or the other social media platforms and you leave us a review and then it will help us boost this show and the iTunes or the other platform will automatically show it to more people. So that would mean the world to me if you want to do me a big favour please leave us a review, five star of course. And then I will thank you, I will personally thank you, I read every single review so I will personally thank you for your review. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for listening from Simone and Caroline is everything. Remember that together we grow exponentially. I’ll see you next time, ciao!